Off-Topic but impactful to our craft - Electric Cars

Tom

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Off-Topic but impactful to our craft - Electric Cars
« on: September 28, 2017, 08:20:18 PM »
Just a few years ago, everyone was scoffing at electric cars.  (Well, except for the so-called environmentalists - that's another story)  Since I work in the auto industry, I read a lot about automotive trends.   All of the major companies are investing heavily in electric cars.  ALL of them.  And, Volvo has gone so far as to state that ALL of their new models will be electrified within just a few short years.  Companies are building new plants just for the batteries, etc.  GM has one in Brownstown Michigan; I have been there and it is impressive.

It's not looking good for our beloved internal combustion engine.  I can say that GM is still investing in the internal combustion engine as I've been to our plant in Pontiac where we build the 'next generation' engines for testing.   But overall, it's starting to look like we are going to see the end in just a few short years.

My plan ?  I'm not stopping with my plans for at least 2 more hot rods, and none of them will be electric for damn certain.

DavyJ

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Re: Off-Topic but impactful to our craft - Electric Cars
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2017, 08:45:25 PM »
Here in Ontario our current electric costs are on a time schedule,  it cost 17 c per kwh on peak time ( Mon> Fri 10am > 5 pm) but only 9 c per kwh at night.  they say the average electric car uses 30 kwh per 100 miles   
So if I drive my electric car in the evening and charge it during the day..... .17 X 30 = $5.10 per100 miles  gasoline costs $2.39 per gallon (NY state),  comparing new vehicles a Honda Civic  Turbo gets 60 mpg    100 miles = 1.66 gallons     1.66 x$2.39 = $3.97 per 100 miles

why would I pay more fore a vehicle to buy it, and then pay more to charge the battery than a turbo Honda?

not to mention it can't go for as many miles .....

not to mention the replacement costs when the batteries begin to fail

not to mention......i think the whole thing is a big scam..........give me  a gas engine for many years to come,   for now electric cars are just expensive toys

but that is just my opinion....if your electric is cheaper it may be a better deal.........but oh well  it will never sound or smell as good!
Living life at a 100 smiles per hour!

jaded iconoclast

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Re: Off-Topic but impactful to our craft - Electric Cars
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2017, 09:00:45 PM »
Its not the electric cars 'we" need to be scared of, its the self-driving cars that are going to be the nail in the hot rods coffin.

Fordors

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Re: Off-Topic but impactful to our craft - Electric Cars
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2017, 10:39:44 PM »
Tom this thread brought to mind another one you started back in January of 2014. I pretty much commented back then along the lines of what George mentions in his post. I personally like driving and when on the open road don't even listen to the radio, I am content to "enjoy the ride". Here is part of what I posted back in 2014 and like George I fear the self driving car. Not for what it does, but rather for what it might do to our enjoyment.

What troubles me most for the future of my two and one half Deuces is not whether there is any interest but rather something I read in yesterday's Chicago Tribune. The gist of the article deals with lower insurance rates. Sounds great right? Well upon reading one finds out that the auto manufacturers are moving quickly toward "the car that drives itself", well maybe not in so many words, but the car that will park itself, avoid another car when backing out onto a street, or brake for the car ahead that is slowing down, etc. We all have seen the commercials for those features already but the day will come when all cars have those capabilities and more. What the hell happened to paying attention and being in control of and responsible for your own vehicle? As the "safer" car becomes available the insurance industry suggests that they can lower rates dramatically. Of course, anyone driving anything other than the mindless ride will likely pay extreme rates. I can see it now-" You want to insure a what???"
Interest will always be there one way or another. Maybe a second (or third) generation rodder, someone seeing a Deuce on the street, finding an old rod in some guy's garage, or whatever. What I fear is they may become too costly to operate one day.

In the three year span since that Tribune article engineering has progressed at a very rapid pace and no doubt the self driving vehicle is close at hand for everyone that wants it.
I know the basement floor is down there because it's holding everything up. I just can't see it anymore.

Tom

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Re: Off-Topic but impactful to our craft - Electric Cars
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2017, 07:33:31 AM »
Autonomous (aka self-driving) cars are already on the road.  Tesla has been doing it for a few years now.  GM has been testing their autonomous Bolt in San Francisco and other places with success.

But there is are still problems to solve, primarily bad weather.  Rain really messes with the lidar (form of radar), and icy roads are unpredictable.  Plus the laws need to be created.  So this technology is available but with limitations.


Tom

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Re: Off-Topic but impactful to our craft - Electric Cars
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2017, 10:41:35 AM »
Once again the idiot politicians running California are trying to destroy their state:
http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article176030626.html

TS3X65MPH

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Re: Off-Topic but impactful to our craft - Electric Cars
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2017, 02:09:56 PM »
Once again the idiot politicians running California are trying to destroy their state:
http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article176030626.html
I don't care what they say.I'll still drive my cars.That will never pass. ;D
You Aren't Living If Your Windshield Isn't Dirty.

jaded iconoclast

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Re: Off-Topic but impactful to our craft - Electric Cars
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2017, 03:24:46 PM »
Autonomous (aka self-driving) cars are already on the road.  Tesla has been doing it for a few years now.  GM has been testing their autonomous Bolt in San Francisco and other places with success.

But there is are still problems to solve, primarily bad weather.  Rain really messes with the lidar (form of radar), and icy roads are unpredictable.  Plus the laws need to be created.  So this technology is available but with limitations.
Actually, the US Government just a few days ago made it clear that they really aren't going to interfere in terms of drafting safety legislation in terms of self driving cars, their position is that they are going to let the corporations developing the technology police themselves! :o Google is one of the MAJOR players in this area, and they have already made it abundantly clear in the LAST election cycle that that they have no problem whatsoever involving themselves directly in your political process, they are all over "taking sides" in the electoral process.
At the same time as you have that happening, you have the real "powers that be" in your country striving for a level of control and surveillance over the population that is unprecedented, and they seem to be not only willing, but EAGER to jump into bed with the corporations that are pushing the self driving vehicle technology, it appears that they are willing to "give it up" without so much as a friendly "reach around". You gotta KNOW that if they are willing to roll over like this, there is a LOT in it for them. And how long after they get this up and rolling do you think it will be before they decide that driving your own vehicle is unsafe, and they start LEGISLATING us into self driving cars "for our own good".
Couple this with the involvement of companies like google, and their TOTALLY OPEN attempts to influence your LAST election, and ask yourself this. What do you suppose will happen to your self driving car on election day if the bulk of your internet searches in the run-up to your next election have been for the "wrong" candidate, and you jump in your car and say "To the nearest polling station James."? As William Burroughs once said, "sometimes paranoia is just knowing the facts" .
Sorry for going political, but theres really no way to avoid it, for my money, this whole subject is political. Whenever your politicians start telling you how they are "making you safer" be afraid, be VERY afraid!

jaded iconoclast

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Re: Off-Topic but impactful to our craft - Electric Cars
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2017, 09:37:31 PM »
Once again the idiot politicians running California are trying to destroy their state:
http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article176030626.html

and there it is.
“If you had told me five years ago that we might have autonomous vehicles on the road soon, I would have laughed,” he said. “The technology is moving so quickly, I don’t know if by 2040 we’ll be owning our own cars.”

They are already using your home appliances  (which you don't really own anymore, due to the way the intellectual property laws protecting the software they are using to spy on you are worded) to listen to whats said in your home, tracking your movements in urban centers by your cell phones, they have the capability to monitor what buildings you enter and when you leave by your 'smart" id's, some employers are "asking" you to implant a chip in your finger for "convenience", the only place they cant keep track of you is (if its older) in your vehicle. Just how long do you think they are going to allow that? Yea, I know, I know, I'm just a crazy old man, right?
George Orwell didn't know the half of it, and when Karl Marx called religion "the opiate of the masses", he had no way of seeing "personal electronics" coming...

jaded iconoclast

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Re: Off-Topic but impactful to our craft - Electric Cars
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2017, 01:17:20 PM »
Too heavy and depressing? ok, how about a little humour to lighten the mood? I remember a couple decades ago there was some discussion about re-working the Canadian constitution, or "Bill of Rights"  ::) as our fearless leaders like to call it. When this was going on, I got a short but sweet email from a friend in Colorado. It said " hell, all this fuss about changing the Canadian constitution is a waste of time, you can just have ours, we aren't using it anyway."  ::);D

duaneshotrods

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Re: Off-Topic but impactful to our craft - Electric Cars
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2017, 02:31:19 PM »
" I ain't goin' off to some god-damned fancy college. I'm stayin' right here. Havin' fun as usual"
* John Milner from American Graffiti.*
Get the stance right, followed by fit & finish.

jaded iconoclast

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Re: Off-Topic but impactful to our craft - Electric Cars
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2017, 04:44:13 PM »
" I ain't goin' off to some god-damned fancy college. I'm stayin' right here. Havin' fun as usual"
* John Milner from American Graffiti.*
After this thread, I thought "F this, Im gonna go downstairs and work on my T-Bucket!!" Hell, Maybe I wont even register it, maybe I'll buy a piece of property in the NW territories and just drive it without plates, let 'em try to catch me! Hell, if global warming is real the summers should get real nice there in ten years or so!

Thirty2ragtop

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Re: Off-Topic but impactful to our craft - Electric Cars
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2017, 05:15:23 PM »
" I ain't goin' off to some god-damned fancy college. I'm stayin' right here. Havin' fun as usual"
* John Milner from American Graffiti.*
And at the end of the day....Milner was right.  When I was laying in the hospital for a time, the room was filled with hot rodders......no business clients or associates...

jaded iconoclast

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Re: Off-Topic but impactful to our craft - Electric Cars
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2017, 05:20:59 PM »
" I ain't goin' off to some god-damned fancy college. I'm stayin' right here. Havin' fun as usual"
* John Milner from American Graffiti.*
And at the end of the day....Milner was right.  When I was laying in the hospital for a time, the room was filled with hot rodders......no business clients or associates...
Geez, I had to read that twice! At first I thought you meant the hot rodders were IN the hospital, not just visiting! ;D

flatheadv8s

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Re: Off-Topic but impactful to our craft - Electric Cars
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2017, 10:51:14 PM »
No, cause the business clients and associates were dreaming up new rules, regulations and ways to make loot. Well this is how technology has advanced and its getting quicker by the day. First pic is a street in New York in 1900. I can only see one car. Onto the future in 1920 I cant see any horses, can you. Funny enough there were quite a few electric cars in 1900 so don't think things aren't going to change because they are rapidly. Companies like Google and Elon Musk will not stop developing as it means money and we are already being prepared with visions of the future. They are already experimenting with driverless trucks in Arizona and in Washington State a company there has had a driverless car that has racked up 1 mil miles with no accidents. I had a young guy come around to my place the other day and saw the cars in the garage and he liked the 67 Camaro but could not related to the 32 and 34. That pretty much sums up the changes that are occurring. Most young people are not interested in anything older the the fifties and I'd say most think driverless electric cars are the way to go because they are indoctrinated with that belief. Anyway I will always have an Early Ford in my garage. Food for thought.
Life is like a toilet roll. The closer you get to the end the faster it goes.

5windowjim

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Re: Off-Topic but impactful to our craft - Electric Cars
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2017, 10:59:21 AM »
I wonder if these "Greenie/Tree Huggers" are all blind in one eye. It seems to me they can only see half the picture. A few years ago Ethanol was going to save us all. In the end a few people in Minnesota, Iowa and Washington got rich and the rest of us had to suffer with poor fuel. Now those refineries are closing down and it's on to electric cars. These cars might work where it is always warm but, here where I live it gets cold in the winter and batteries loose about 30% of their power drastically limiting the use of the car. We have hydro electric power here so there is no pollution from producing it. But, if you live where your electricity come's from burning coal that generates a lot of pollution. A big unanswered question is what to do with all the used up batteries, more pollution. As for self driving cars, there is a great video "Programed To Kill" where the question is asked if a situation arises where the car will hit a woman and child or a group of adult's on the sidewalk who does the programer decide to take out. Lot's of legal questions.  Jim
 

jaded iconoclast

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Re: Off-Topic but impactful to our craft - Electric Cars
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2017, 11:03:00 AM »
No, cause the business clients and associates were dreaming up new rules, regulations and ways to make loot. Well this is how technology has advanced and its getting quicker by the day. First pic is a street in New York in 1900. I can only see one car. Onto the future in 1920 I cant see any horses, can you. Funny enough there were quite a few electric cars in 1900 so don't think things aren't going to change because they are rapidly. Companies like Google and Elon Musk will not stop developing as it means money and we are already being prepared with visions of the future. They are already experimenting with driverless trucks in Arizona and in Washington State a company there has had a driverless car that has racked up 1 mil miles with no accidents. I had a young guy come around to my place the other day and saw the cars in the garage and he liked the 67 Camaro but could not related to the 32 and 34. That pretty much sums up the changes that are occurring. Most young people are not interested in anything older the the fifties and I'd say most think driverless electric cars are the way to go because they are indoctrinated with that belief. Anyway I will always have an Early Ford in my garage. Food for thought.
The thing that worries me about the driverless cars, is will they still let us DRIVE those early fords. I suspect not, at least in the US, England and probably Canada.

jaded iconoclast

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Re: Off-Topic but impactful to our craft - Electric Cars
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2017, 11:08:43 AM »
I wonder if these "Greenie/Tree Huggers" are all blind in one eye. It seems to me they can only see half the picture. A few years ago Ethanol was going to save us all. In the end a few people in Minnesota, Iowa and Washington got rich and the rest of us had to suffer with poor fuel. Now those refineries are closing down and it's on to electric cars. These cars might work where it is always warm but, here where I live it gets cold in the winter and batteries loose about 30% of their power drastically limiting the use of the car. We have hydro electric power here so there is no pollution from producing it. But, if you live where your electricity come's from burning coal that generates a lot of pollution. A big unanswered question is what to do with all the used up batteries, more pollution. As for self driving cars, there is a great video "Programed To Kill" where the question is asked if a situation arises where the car will hit a woman and child or a group of adult's on the sidewalk who does the programer decide to take out. Lot's of legal questions.  Jim
Its not the greenies/tree huggers that are pushing the driverless car, theres nothing "green" about Google and General Motors, they are all about money, and ultimately, political power. I am not particularly in love with the greenies myself, but if you are looking at fighting the greenies on this, you are looking in the wrong place, theres a far more sinister reason behind the driverless car. You are watching the wrong hand, magicians call it mis-direction.

Tom

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Re: Off-Topic but impactful to our craft - Electric Cars
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2017, 01:43:37 PM »
It is very debatable that electric cars pollute less, especially if you consider the whole lifecycle of an auto - from mining the raw material to crushing & melting it down.  Mining the lythium for the batteries is NOT environmentally friendly to say the least.   You've probably seen a pic or two of those mines.  At least the batteries must be recycled.

Now about the source of electricity - Yes if you have hydroelectric or solar power, etc., it's relatively 'green'.  But most of us have coal or nuclear plants - that isn't green by any stretch.  So you're essentially centralizing the pollution for coal.  For nuclear powered plants - there is still no solution for storing radioactive waste.  NO WORRIES NOTHING TO SEE HERE....

Oh yeah - about charging the damn things.  Most old homes don't have the amps.  Who is going to pay to upgrade all of those homes ?  And the localized electrical grids may not have enough 'juice' either.   

Given all of the other events that must take place for electric cars to dominate the market will take a while, AND given the power that the current oil companies have in the political spectrum, we have at the very least 20-25 years or so before our gas-powered cars start to become obsolete.  Some states, especially California, will have a shorter time window.  Others, like Texas, much much longer.  I'm personally not concerned that gas-powered cars will be obsolete in my lifetime, nor for my children as they're growing up in this culture so it won't be as much of a shock to them. 

Heck, when I was a kid I had relatives that still rode horses to town !  As Graeme pointed out - things change.   It's up to you to decide what you want to accept and what not to accept.

My opinion - that and 50c will buy you a cup of coffee !

jaded iconoclast

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Re: Off-Topic but impactful to our craft - Electric Cars
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2017, 02:01:37 PM »
It is very debatable that electric cars pollute less, especially if you consider the whole lifecycle of an auto - from mining the raw material to crushing & melting it down.  Mining the lythium for the batteries is NOT environmentally friendly to say the least.   You've probably seen a pic or two of those mines.  At least the batteries must be recycled.

Now about the source of electricity - Yes if you have hydroelectric or solar power, etc., it's relatively 'green'.  But most of us have coal or nuclear plants - that isn't green by any stretch.  So you're essentially centralizing the pollution for coal.  For nuclear powered plants - there is still no solution for storing radioactive waste.  NO WORRIES NOTHING TO SEE HERE....

Oh yeah - about charging the damn things.  Most old homes don't have the amps.  Who is going to pay to upgrade all of those homes ?  And the localized electrical grids may not have enough 'juice' either.   

Given all of the other events that must take place for electric cars to dominate the market will take a while, AND given the power that the current oil companies have in the political spectrum, we have at the very least 20-25 years or so before our gas-powered cars start to become obsolete.  Some states, especially California, will have a shorter time window.  Others, like Texas, much much longer.  I'm personally not concerned that gas-powered cars will be obsolete in my lifetime, nor for my children as they're growing up in this culture so it won't be as much of a shock to them. 

Heck, when I was a kid I had relatives that still rode horses to town !  As Graeme pointed out - things change.   It's up to you to decide what you want to accept and what not to accept.

My opinion - that and 50c will buy you a cup of coffee !
Total 100% agreement with this. Many people really honestly believe that electricity is produced by the outlet in their wall. If every car transitioned from hydrocarbon based fuel to electricity tomorrow the only way we currently have of producing electricity on the scale this would require would be nuclear power.

3 deuces

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Re: Off-Topic but impactful to our craft - Electric Cars
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2017, 05:35:29 PM »
dont think they would work in rural areas,ranchs ,gravel roads and etc.

flatheadv8s

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Re: Off-Topic but impactful to our craft - Electric Cars
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2017, 06:18:07 PM »
Check this site out. A new solar powered car that can keep up with highway traffic speeds and doesn't require charging. No matter what you think changes are afoot because nothing ever stays the same. The technology is already here where all new cars have a chip that has the ability to be monitored. With Google and the GPS system one day you will get traffic violations in the mail without the need for cops to issue you with a ticket. Speed, go through a red light, etc. etc automatic ticket thanks to the GPS. Scary stuff thats for sure.

https://www.energymatters.com.au/renewable-news/solar-cars-australia-em5668/
Life is like a toilet roll. The closer you get to the end the faster it goes.

jaded iconoclast

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Re: Off-Topic but impactful to our craft - Electric Cars
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2017, 03:50:01 PM »
Just a quicky, not going into depth here, but the #1 electric car country in the world, Norway, has just announced it is scaling back on the tax breaks they offer on new electric car purchases. ;)