pickin' and a'grinnin'

jaded iconoclast

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pickin' and a'grinnin'
« on: June 07, 2017, 02:47:25 PM »
I'll preface this by saying that as a former street racer type tackling his first "serious" hot rod build, my previous bodywork efforts have more or less consisted of knocking the highs down and the lows up, filling it with mud, and breaking out the longboard, so I am relatively new to serious efforts at picking and filing. Building a 750 hp BBC? Porting heads? NO Problem. Picking and filing a panel straight?? Not so much. ::) So this photo may not look like much, but it constitutes something of a breakthrough for me.

I have been GENTLY trying to work this area off and on for a week or so, the small red rectangle was a really nasty ridge, the small red circle next to it was a pronounced low. I had been trying to get the ridge down and the low up in a controlled fashion, without much success. Last night and this morning, I had what I would call a breakthrough. I clamped a ball end dolly in my vise, placed it under under the low, pressed the whole area down onto the dolly with the palm of  my hand, and worked the ridge alternating between a cross-peen and a pick. I finally was unable to "un-lock" the ridge, and actually turned the low into a high, which I had to knock back down with a low-crown hammer against a low crown dolly from the back. I feel like I am finally starting to control the metal here, instead of it controlling me. The big oval next to it was one big low, its now a couple smaller lows with highs in between Theres a sh*tload of work left to do here, but I really feel like I had something of a breakthrough here!

So feel free to add your own picking and filing efforts here! Show me up as the rank amateur I am, hopefully I can learn something here!
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TS3X65MPH

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2017, 10:19:31 PM »
You have to remember that your not banging nails into 2x4's.Takes a light touch.
 I would start with clean metal before starting on any metal work. ;)
 Bye the way,Is this your T ?
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jaded iconoclast

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2017, 09:48:02 AM »
You have to remember that your not banging nails into 2x4's.Takes a light touch.
 I would start with clean metal before starting on any metal work. ;)
 Bye the way,Is this your T ?
It is my T. I think I have the "light touch" part down, I think the secret for me was finally getting enough pressure on the dolly. The ridge ran into the raised bead for the door line, I am no expert but I think that was why it was so difficult to get leveled out. The dark area I am working has the rust cleaned off, I wiped it with old engine oil so it would give some contrast between the highs and lows. I should have cleaned the area on the door, I got so excited when I finally got that ridge and adjacent low spot roughed in, I jumped to the low spot on the door. I got a little carried away ;D I will get back on the cowl area this morning. Pretty normal for old Model T stuff nowadays, but the body on this thing is like a sack of hockey pucks! ::)
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TS3X65MPH

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2017, 10:58:38 AM »
You have to remember that your not banging nails into 2x4's.Takes a light touch.
 I would start with clean metal before starting on any metal work. ;)
 Bye the way,Is this your T ?
It is my T. I think I have the "light touch" part down, I think the secret for me was finally getting enough pressure on the dolly. The ridge ran into the raised bead for the door line, I am no expert but I think that was why it was so difficult to get leveled out. The dark area I am working has the rust cleaned off, I wiped it with old engine oil so it would give some contrast between the highs and lows. I should have cleaned the area on the door, I got so excited when I finally got that ridge and adjacent low spot roughed in, I jumped to the low spot on the door. I got a little carried away ;D I will get back on the cowl area this morning. Pretty normal for old Model T stuff nowadays, but the body on this thing is like a sack of hockey pucks! ::)
A great book is The Key to Metal Bumping by Frank T.Sargent.My Dad was a Body Man.Some of my friends are quite good.Ths kinda stuff drives me crazy.
You Aren't Living If Your Windshield Isn't Dirty.

jaded iconoclast

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2017, 11:08:55 AM »
A great book is The Key to Metal Bumping by Frank T.Sargent.My Dad was a Body Man.Some of my friends are quite good.Ths kinda stuff drives me crazy.
[/quote]
I have it, it is very good. Heres the tenative plan for today, I will pick up the lows marked in red x's from behind with a flat dolly on the front of the panel, then put an hourglass dolly behind the big low marked by the red oval, and try to hammer down the surrounding high spots in green x's. Or should I try to rough the whole panel in closer before I move on to the small lows around the area I just worked?
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jaded iconoclast

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2017, 02:11:29 PM »
Don't worry, I'm not going to continue with a "hammer blow by hammer blow" account, but I figured I would show this as a follow on to the other posts, this is really coming along IMO.

to backtrack a bit, this is the original damage, the red circle is the area I am working as it originally looked, with the crease in the center of the red oval. Almost looks like someone hit the panel from the inside with a chisel, it was very distinct and pronounced, with LOTS of surrounding distortion. Worst spot on the panel, which is why I started there.


This is after some more work this morning, held a low crown dolly on the back of the panel and hammered down some of the highs on dolly, as soon as I heard the dolly "tink" I moved to another spot. The area I am working is actually starting to look pretty good.


At this point, I have very lightly "blocked" the area with 220 grit on a file, the green line represents the position of the original crease, the two ovals are distinct lows, and the green arrow shows the direction the low below the original crease is still pulling the panel. The original crease was about .080 above the surrounding panel, the lows are pretty shallow now, like .010-.015. I will try to work those two lows out, and take the highs down a little more, shoot another guide coat and sand again, at that point, I think this immediate area will be good enough to file, so I will move on to roughing in the rest of the panel. Later I will come back and spray a guide coat over the whole area, go over it with a longboard with 220, and if everything looks good, I will finish with a file.

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jaded iconoclast

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2017, 02:27:16 PM »
A light just went on. Instead of trying to bring up the lows in the area right around where the crease was, my next blows will be on the big lows surrounding that area. I have a hunch that the low to the right in this photo is especially holding the distortion in the area around the original crease. I think if I release the tension there, the high immediately to its left will come down, and some of the lows below the crease might even come out of their own accord.
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TS3X65MPH

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2017, 04:23:28 PM »
Went by East Bay Speed & Custom early today.
The body was blasted & now there ruffing it up a bit & then they will start on the metal work.
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jaded iconoclast

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2017, 05:35:15 PM »
Went by East Bay Speed & Custom early today.
The body was blasted & now there ruffing it up a bit & then they will start on the metal work.
A friend of mine up here is building a similar '36 for some guy right now, I should ask him if I can take some pics. NICE selection of hammers!!
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jaded iconoclast

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2017, 08:35:48 PM »
I wont bore you with another photo, but it worked out like I figured, I stuck a spoon behind the bottom green X in post #6, leaned on it pretty hard and knocked the ridge down just above it, then put a t dolly on the inside of the door bead where it was a little low and gave that a couple good firm smacks, and the series of low spots running up to where the ridge originally was came right out, I didn't even touch them. Things are looking good.

I was going to pick up the frame today, but it rained HARD, so I am picking it up tomorrow, pics to follow.
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5windowjim

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2017, 04:00:41 PM »
 It looks like you have some knowledge as to what the metal is going to do when you hit it.You are making great progress keep us posted. The main difference between a high priced body man and an amiture at home is the price and speed that the work gets done. Doesn't it feel good when you get it right?  Jim

jaded iconoclast

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2017, 05:23:34 PM »
It looks like you have some knowledge as to what the metal is going to do when you hit it.You are making great progress keep us posted. The main difference between a high priced body man and an amiture at home is the price and speed that the work gets done. Doesn't it feel good when you get it right?  Jim
I definitely agree with the "speed" part! :o ;D I am mostly learning as I go, and that's the approach I am trying to take.
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jaded iconoclast

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2017, 08:56:28 PM »
Hemideuce came by today and did like an older, more experienced and wiser hot rodder should, shook his head, asked me "so how much power is that thing gonna make again??" told me I was nuts, said "What the hell are you gonna use that thing for?!! You know your wife isn't even gonna get in it, right?" ect ect, and gave me the usual concerned fatherly advice he always does, which I listened carefully to, and will mostly ignore as I always do, probably to my own detriment and physical peril. ;D

At least I was actually working on something when he came. I figure in time, this will become a build thread.
So this is what I started with.Ugh


And this is about two months ago, and an hour in...


And this is about 2-3 hours in...


And this is about 8 hours in and when I picked it up again yesterday...


And this is about 2 hours after HemiDeuce left. This is still pretty much file finished, so theres lots of marks that have to be removed, and there are 3-4 pits I have to braze up before I proceed onto metal finishing and getting it ready for the plater, but after about 14 hours of work, the final shape is there, and I have a peaked Corvair pitman arm! YEA BABY!!






Of course I could have just bought a nice shiny Taiwanese chrome one from the aftermarket for about $75, but then it wouldn't be peaked, and I wouldn't have got to unpack it after its all finished and slick and shiny and comes back from the plater, and knod and smile to myself. :)
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Fordors

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2017, 10:04:40 PM »
Nice! In the absence of the "Like" button I'll give it this- 👍
I know the basement floor is down there because it's holding everything up. I just can't see it anymore.

jaded iconoclast

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2017, 10:06:02 PM »
Nice! In the absence of the "Like" button I'll give it this- 👍
And I'll give that a 👍 too! ;D
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Fordors

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2017, 10:41:51 PM »
Garage sale find a couple of weeks ago. Fairmount 161 G body hammer, $3.00. Lived a rough life at the hands of a home owner but with some file work and emery paper the damage and heavy dings are gone. A little more work and it's ready for a new life. The handle is a bit worse for the wear but it will remain as a reminder of how bad it once was.
I know the basement floor is down there because it's holding everything up. I just can't see it anymore.

Fordors

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2017, 10:48:11 PM »
Here are resized photos
I know the basement floor is down there because it's holding everything up. I just can't see it anymore.

TS3X65MPH

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2017, 11:14:29 PM »
Here are resized photos
Very cool Larry.
You Aren't Living If Your Windshield Isn't Dirty.

jaded iconoclast

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2017, 03:00:35 PM »
Here are resized photos
That's a really nice hammer Larry.
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jaded iconoclast

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2017, 05:01:06 PM »
Heres most of my hammers. I have had the two green ones on the top left for eons, they are seventies era Craftsman, not horrible, nothing fancy. The two red and white ones below that were my dads, I think they are Snap-on, my dad had them since the fifties, they are old. They look a bit awkward but are actually quite well balanced and nice to use, I especially use the ball end one a lot. The two on the top left are 50 yr old Martins I recently bought from a local panel beater that has retired, they are NICE freakin hammers! I try to use them sparingly and take very good care of them. I also have a home-made stretching hammer I use for aluminum shaping, I made it from a baseball bat, but its not in the pic.

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DavyJ

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2017, 07:25:13 PM »
nice collection!  the right tools sure mean a difference in how the work turns out...
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jaded iconoclast

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2017, 07:28:21 PM »
nice collection!  the right tools sure mean a difference in how the work turns out...
The most important "tool" is the tool swinging the hammer :P ;D, that's my excuse, and I'm stickin' to it! :o
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jaded iconoclast

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2017, 09:32:56 PM »
Well this should make HemiDeuce (a little) happy. I have been blocking my chassis off the garage floor and fooling around with engine height/position in preparation for when my axle comes back, so I can build the new front perch. He came by yesterday looked at it and said "it looks pretty low". I told him the frame rail was 7" off the ground at the front of the motor, 10" ahead of the kickup and the bottom of the pan was 4.5" off the ground, he said "that's pretty low, I set my car up at 4" and the pan got scraped".
So I blocked the frame back up at 7" again, and dropped the motor in with a 4.5" block under the pan, and 2" between the end of the water pump shaft and where I figured the rad core will end up, leveled and squared the motor with the rails,and hung a body side on it. It looked ok, but I felt like maybe it had a little more rake than I wanted, I am trying to proportion it similar to the Chuck Penry car


So I made a thicker set of blocks that put the pan sump at 4 7/8" (See, I DO listen to your advice! :)) and took another look, but that put the top of the distributor cap even with where I figured the top of the cowl would be, so the engine was sitting higher than the Penry car relative to the body, and I still felt it had too much rake.
So I left the engine where it was, lowered the back of the frame an inch, and raised the front 3/4 of an inch.the frame rail is just under 8" off the ground at the front of the engine, and 9" in front of the kickup. The distributor is about 1/4" away from where the firewall will end up, and below the cowl top and theres 2" to the rad core. It also leveled the frame rail with the pan rail. It looks like the wheelbase is going to end up about 93", according to the car Craft article, the Penry car was 92".
 This is where I am going to put it when I set up the front and rear suspension mounts, I'm pretty happy with this.


On Saturday, I am going to go up to my other place, and dig out the front drums and spindles I am going to use, and bring back a T350 case, so I can establish where the trans mount will end up, and I plan to mount the ladder bars to the trans crossmember, so that should really help get everything nailed down. Then I can start locating the steering box and master cylinder.
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Fordors

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2017, 10:10:29 PM »
George, the frame on the Penry car looks to have rake to it but the engine is level and I think that is one of the keys to it's "look". The radiator and firewall look vertical and the level valve covers forming a right angle with the firewall look natural to me. Chuck is riding kinda high in the car, probably a result of the frame rake causing the seat to be high.
I sold off all the early Car Crafts I had and I can't go back and look at the article, so I am forming these  thoughts only by what I see in the photos posted.
I know the basement floor is down there because it's holding everything up. I just can't see it anymore.

jaded iconoclast

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2017, 10:00:14 AM »
George, the frame on the Penry car looks to have rake to it but the engine is level and I think that is one of the keys to it's "look". The radiator and firewall look vertical and the level valve covers forming a right angle with the firewall look natural to me. Chuck is riding kinda high in the car, probably a result of the frame rake causing the seat to be high.
I sold off all the early Car Crafts I had and I can't go back and look at the article, so I am forming these  thoughts only by what I see in the photos posted.
Now that I look, you might be right. I never considered that the body was channeled more at the back than the front, that would explain why my distributor was too high. I will mess around with that, I will try dropping the front of the frame back down and tipping the body and engine up a bit towards the front.
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Thirty2ragtop

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2017, 10:15:02 AM »
You couldn't pick a better car to use as an example!!!  It's so much better than most....to my eye.  ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh  could you you build to of 'um??????

jaded iconoclast

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2017, 10:17:48 AM »
A little irony here. If I were on that "other" forum, I would be catching holy hell for putting an automatic in it, you know, not "traditional" bla, bla, bla, "street rod parts" yadda, yadda, yadda. Both the Penry car and the other car that is really influencing the direction this has taken, the Dick Thompson Bucket, ran hydros. ;D

I wonder how many of the guys that would be bitching could actually drive a 500ish-hp, 94" WB car with 4.88s, slicks no footroom and a stick in anger.  ;D
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jaded iconoclast

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2017, 10:18:34 AM »
You couldn't pick a better car to use as an example!!!  It's so much better than most....to my eye.  ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh  could you you build to of 'um??????
like! ;D
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Thirty2ragtop

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2017, 10:22:18 AM »
Ya' got good taste!

jaded iconoclast

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2017, 05:14:16 PM »
Well, I took Larrys words to heart, went downstairs this afternoon, and pretty much started over. I dropped the front of the frame back down to 7" at the front motormounts, and raised it back up to 10" at the kick-up, and leveled the body with the ground. Stood back and took a look, held up the Car Craft with Penrys car in it, and promptly raised the ass end of the frame another inch! The body is now channeled the same 3" at the firewall, but its 4.5" at the start of the kick-up, big difference. Tilting the body back kind of lowered the distributor relative the cowl, it looks right now. I also "sat" in it for the first time, I just laid a piece of 1/4" plywood  on top of the rails and laid a 2x4 on top of that, and sat on the 2x4. I plan to run low back fiberglass race buckets in it, so having my butt about 1 3/4" off the floor is pretty close. The seating position actually looks really good, the edge of the body just behind the door is about even with my armpit, and if I put the steering column about 15 degrees off vertical, the steering wheel will be at a comfortable position, and the steering box will under the floor about 18" from the firewall, which leaves me some room (not much!) for the pedals, and lets me put the brake pedal and master cylinder between the steering box and firewall. In keeping with the sixties "drag bucket" theme, I wanted to use one of the small rectangular moon gas pedals mounted to the floor, but there might not be room, I might have to make a spoon suspended from the firewall.
Man, this thing is gonna be HAIRY! The rear end is right under your ass, the seating position is "sixties altered" and the motor is right in your face. This is gonna be SERIOUS FUN!
Another thing happened today, and this is BIG. I still need a grill shell (the one I was using in my mock-up is actually a '26/'27 shell for my T Tudor)and cowl top, about three months ago, a friend of mine took me to see this guy in east Langley that has a yard FULL of T and A stuff. He wasn't there, so I just looked through the gate, there was a TON of stuff, but this guy is not real friendly to strangers, so I wanted to get someone to set up an introduction, if I just went back there on my own, odds are he would have got pissed off.
So for about three months, I have had two guys that know him trying to get me in the gate, I called one of them today, they talked to him last night, and I am IN, we just gotta set up a time. He has several cowl tops for sure, I am also hoping to get a grill shell, garnish moldings for my Tudor, and maybe a Model A PU tailgate, so I can build my box! Things are happening!
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Tom

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2017, 05:45:02 PM »
Cool; keep us posted !

DavyJ

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2017, 01:59:20 PM »
Sounds like you are planning carefully....should be a fun ride!
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jaded iconoclast

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2017, 10:22:37 PM »
I had been going back and forth for a while about reversing the Corvair steering box or not, I finally decided I will reverse it, so I tore it down. It is CHERRY inside, all the bearings and races, even the balls in the block all look great. So I don't need the $85 US rebuild kit, I will just cut some new gaskets, drill the hole in the other end, put a plug in the hole where the steering shaft originally went in, and bobs yer uncle.
The original plan was to run it in polished aluminum, but some of the pits are too deep, I can see already it would have a wavy finish, and I HATE that. Instead, I will clean the pits out with a drill, fill them with two part epoxy, prime it, block it out, and paint it gloss Naples orange, same as the engine. The frame is going to be gloss black, and the pitman arm chromed, it will look sharp, probably even better than the polished aluminum would have looked.
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jaded iconoclast

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2017, 03:51:47 PM »
I have already posted these elsewhere on here, but for the sake of continuity, if this is going to be the build thread, I should get everything in one place. This is the frame I am starting with, but its getting re-worked front and rear spring mounts and some other stuff



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jaded iconoclast

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2017, 04:48:46 PM »
prepping the steering box for paint. I plan to fill the pits with Splashzone epoxy, but it wont stick to dirt and corrosion, so I gotta drill out EVERY pit with a drill bit or dremel bit on the big ones, until all the black shit is gone and I have shiny aluminum. And there are LOTS of pits.




Its times like this when you can start to appreciate why guys build rat rods. ;D


Retirement too boring? Nothing on TV? Too much time on your hands?? Have I got a solution for YOU! ::) ;)
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DavyJ

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2017, 05:20:08 PM »
Whats with all those huge dustpan like shovels in the corner of the garage?  I did not think it snowed in BC! ;D ;D

Project is starting to gather some speed.....
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jaded iconoclast

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2017, 05:24:39 PM »
Whats with all those huge dustpan like shovels in the corner of the garage?  I did not think it snowed in BC! ;D ;D

Project is starting to gather some speed.....
It doesn't, my wife uses those to shovel up the big steaming piles when I am talking too much! ;D
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DavyJ

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2017, 05:31:57 PM »
Have you tried polishing it with a mounted flapwheel on a die grinder?  if you start with a 36 or 60 grit, it should cut right through the pits in areas where you can spare some material.......
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Thirty2ragtop

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2017, 05:36:06 PM »
What about walnut shell media blast?

jaded iconoclast

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2017, 05:46:19 PM »
Have you tried polishing it with a mounted flapwheel on a die grinder?  if you start with a 36 or 60 grit, it should cut right through the pits in areas where you can spare some material.......
I don't want to make low spots, I HATE a wavy finish. In fact, I started to do that here, made a low, and mangled the line,

 and didn't even get rid of the pitted area, so I will sand the area in the red oval with 220 and do a shallow fill with epoxy and bring the contour back. Then I will sand it with a piece of wood and some 320, prime and paint it.  This is a bit tedious, but it goes fairly fast once you get going.
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DavyJ

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2017, 07:40:53 PM »
I was thinking more about the bolt boss where you could take out the whole area evenly.............I see your point on the low spots on the body.
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jaded iconoclast

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2017, 08:01:36 PM »
I was thinking more about the bolt boss where you could take out the whole area evenly.............I see your point on the low spots on the body.
ah, I see. The pits there are pretty deep, that's the worst area I don't know if I would want to remove that much materlal. Speaking of "removing material" I didn't notice it till I washed up, but when I was doing this, the other end of the pin vise was doing a fine job of "removing material" from the palm of my hand. :o ;D.

So I took a breather from more pit drilling today, and cleaned up the $5 Q-jet I picked up at Monroe instead. I do kind of tend to get focused on what I'm doing sometimes. ;D
Free your mind, think for yourself, keep the 1st amendment alive

jaded iconoclast

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2017, 06:35:16 PM »
Woo-Hoo! Axles are here! The top one is for the T-bucket, and dropped 3 3/4", the bottom one is for my full-fendered T Tudor, and dropped a full 4". Both were dropped by Jeremy Mang at Victory Hot Rods in Nanoose Bay BC, he did a nice job. :) I have a couple divots that I have to tig up, then I will peak and drill the top one, and prep it for plating.
Free your mind, think for yourself, keep the 1st amendment alive

Thirty2ragtop

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Re: pickin' and a'grinnin'
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2017, 07:06:06 PM »
Very nice